From "jmm" <>
Date Tue, 07 Sep 1999 00:55:46 +0100

[: hacktivism :]

I'm french, sorry for my english, and to be late, and long
> the ">" down there are just for information : WhatISayIsWhatIGive

> Ideas, like economic market, deals with supply and demand.
Ideas are not "like" economic market
Hacktivists don't deal with "supply and demand", they generally hackt in
several mailing lists and try to improve ideas, and facts, to spread infos
and organize actions. In fact, it's impossible to do (and think) right
when the debate is confused by threads like that, when your are spammed by
several messages of the same people(s) in the same day on the same
subject. I'd prefer to receive each day a digest of all those mails rather
than all those little bit(s) of thoughts, and arguments, one per one :
organize yourself, respond once for all and do it together, do make your
mail some kind of a logical song, do not respond to each mail, organize
your thoughts. please, for all of us, and this list.

> Unfortunately, it seems that an average hacker is more skilled for
> computers than for psychology/sociology....
the basics of hacking is called "social engeneering"; that means hackers
know that their "corporated human targets" (ennemy or not) are weak,
unaware, or self-confident, that's why hackers are able to take little
bit(s) of control on the other computers, their power, and knowledge. It's
not only a question of computing, it regards what people think, and do,
with their computers. Hackers use both psychology/sociology and
technology, there's no problem with computers; just take care.

> -1- hacking is inefficient because it is not able to really shut down
> organisations like the KKK. You replace their home page, good, and then ?
thanks god : the hacking of the KKK's site made me go there and helped to
learn more about KKK (i read, just a little) : when I first discovered
HateWatch's linking, I had no time to look at all those hundreds of
"hating sites"; besides, HateWatch was closed this summer, I know now it
came back.

> It sounds more as a teenager exploit than as a mature action....
> Am I speaking with teenagers ?
what's the problem with teenagers ? or with women (for "example") ? don't
you love them ? don't get angry, it makes fool. With the net, you don't
have to fight, nor to kill, nor to be better than others are (who's got a
big dick ?), but to learn, and share.

> -2- even if hacking was efficient in destroying a web site, it would have
> no impact over the organization itself
would you prefer to kill them ? besides, cracking (destroying) is
generally considered as criminal and silly by hackers, who think (except
some kind of teenagers) that hacking is knowledge, and information is

> -3-even if hacking had an impact on an organization, it couldn't restrain
> new ones to re-use the same ideas
sometimes, it's also useful to know and explain what Microsoft, for
"example", is really doing, in terms of "economic market" and civil

> -4-by making a fuss around these organizations, it promotes them, and
> recruits for them
internet is a kind of action amongst others, but it's also a network,
everybody links to have more impact, just link better, and the fusses
around those organizations made by a small group of persons are sometimes
more useful than a demonstration of thousand of people, but you can also
stay @ home and believe that nothing can be done because the world is bad,
bad, bad

> -5-governments use these "exploits" to convince people the internet is
> not secure and that they must give up their privacy in order to clean it
> from these dangerous terrorists. I even wonder if hackers are not paid by
> governments...
nobody's perfect, and some hackers are "forced" to earn a living as spys
for corporates, or states, but some don't. The first hackers were dealing
with computers, and creating the internet, that's still what they do, but
not only for professionnaly reasons. And look at all that's doing by, or, or if
you read french

> I wasn't able to read the least coherent argument justifying hacking in
> this thread. Only a few personal attacks, the ones used when, precisely,
> one is unable to argue and convince...
U argue with others, and didn't convinve me

> Here are the true effects of hacking/cracking.
Here are the "true effects" of this kind of thread, and true-false debate
: give informations, texts, links, learn and improve with others

>>"Free speech means the right to speak the truth, not to spew filth"
> And who defines what is the truth ? You, probably ?
Nope : you, me, others... "true effects"

> This kind of sentence is not acceptable.
> For Hitler, the truth was to exterminate Judes.
"true effects" indeed, and computers came also at that time to help people
fight this kind of "truth", and computers are not any more today in
military and corporate hands only

> the ability to publish and promote one's ideas.
> Is it such a difficult notion to understand ?
hacking is not arguing, nor fighting, you don't have to, that's also why
hacktivism is a little bit better than activism

> If you think the KKK or other groups like them are not allowed to have a
> web site, and that freedom of speech has to be limited, just have a look
> at this URL :
beware of this kind of press ! or just have also a look at all those
websites that are explaining now to Aussie's how the web is really
working, how to take more control over their computers, how to protect
themselves from corporates and institutions, how is silly, and useless,
this censor bill, and those "filters"...

CU m.

[: hacktivism :]
[: for unsubscribe instructions or list info consult the list FAQ :]
[: :]